KRAMER V. KRAMER
Meryl Streep, Dustin Hoffman, 1979
CLERK: Oyez, oyez...The persons having business with the Supreme Court, State of New York, Special Term, Part V. Draw nigh and ye shall be heard. This court is now in session Judge Atkins presiding All rise...
Judge: Is the Attorney for the Petitioner ready?
GRESSEN: I am your honor. As our first witness I would like to call Joanna Kramer.
Clerk: Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Joanna: I dol
GRESSEN: Now then, Mrs. Kramer, would you tell the court how long you were married?
JOANNA: Eight years.
GRESSEN: And would you describe those years as happy?
JOANNA: The first two, yes, but after that it became increasingly difficult.
GRESSEN: Mrs. Kramer, did you hold a job before you were married?
JOANNA: Yes I did, when I first got out of Smith, I worked in the Art Department of Mademoiselle Magazine for several years.
GREESEN: Did you continue to work after you were married?
JOANNA: No, I did not.
GRESSEN: Did you wish to?
JOANNA: Yes. But every time I talked to Ted--my ex-husband--about it, but he wouldn't listen. He refuses to discuss it in any serious way. I remember one time he said I probably couldn't get a job that would pay enough to hire a baby-sitter for Billy.
GRESSEN: Tell me, Mrs. Kramer, are you employed at the present time?
JOANNA: Yes, I'm a sportswear designer for Selco, here in New York.
GRESSEN: And what is your present salary?
JANNA: I make thirty-one thousand dollars a year.
GRESSEN: Mrs. Kramer, do you love your child?
JOANNA: Yes. Very much.
GRESSEN: And yet you chose to leave him?
JOANNA: Yes...Look, during the last five years of our married, I had...I was getting more and more...unhappy, more and more troubled. I needed to talk to somebody to help me, but when I turned to Ted, he just wasn't there for me. So we became more and more isolated from one another, more and more separate. He was very involved in his career and because of his attitude towards my fears and his inability to deal with my feelings, I had come to have almost no self esteem. I was scared and I as very unhappy and in my mind I had no other choice but to leave. At the time I left, I felt that there was something wrong with me and that my son would be better off without me. And it was only after I got to California, that I realized, after getting into therapy, I wasn't such a terrible person and just becauseI needed some creative and emotional outlet other than my child, that didn't make me unfit to be a mother.
GRESSEN: Your honor, I would like to submit in evidence a report by Mrs. Kramer's therapist, Dr. Elinore Freedman.
SHAUNESSY: Objection, your honor, the report is irrelevant and immaterial and not binding on the Respondent.
Judge: Overruled.
GRESSEN: Mr. Kramer, can you tell the court why you are asking for custody?
JOANNA: Because he is my child. And because I love him. I know I left my son. I know that that is a terrible thing to do. Believe me I have to live with that every day of my life. But in order to leave him, I had to believe that it was the only thing I could do and that it was the best thing for him. I was incapable of functioning in that home and I didn't know what the alternative was going to be and I thought it was not best to take him with me. However I have since gotten some help and I have worked very, very hard to become a whole human being and I don't think I should be punished for that and I don't think my little boy should be punished either. He's only seven (7) years old. He needs me! I am not saying he doesn't need his father, but I really believe he needs me more. I was his mommy for five and a half years and Ted took over that role for eighteen months but I don't know how anybody could possibly believe that I have less of a stake in that little boy than Mr. Kramer does. I am his mother. I am his mother.
GRESSEN: Thank you Mrs. Kramer, I have no further questions.
SHAUNESSY: Now then, Mrs. Kramer, you say that you were married for eight years. Is that right?
JOANNA: Yes.
SHAUNESSY: In all that time did your husband ever strike you or you physically abuse in any way.
JOANNA: No.
SHAUNESSY: Did your husband strike or physically abuse his child in any way?
JOANNA: No.
SHAUNESSY: Would you describe your husband as an alcoholic?
JOANNA: No.
SHAUNESSY: A heavy drinker?
JOANNA: No.
SHAUNESSY: Was he unfaithful?
JOANNA: No.
SHAUNESSY: Did he ever fail to provide for you?
JOANNA: No.
SHAUNESSY: Well, I can certainly see why you left him.
GRESSEN: Objection.
SHAUNESSY: How long do you plan to live in New York, Mrs. Kramer?
JOANNA: Permanently.
SHAUNESSY: How many boy friends have you had --permanently?
GRESSEN: Objection your honor on the grounds of vagueness.
Judge: I'll allow it.
JOANNA: I don't recall.
SHAUNESSY: Well more than three, less than thirty-three, permanently?
GRESSEN: Objection!
JUDGE: Overruled. The witness will answer, please.
JOANNA: Somewhere in between.
SHAUNESSY: Do you have a lover now?
JOANNA: Yes I'm seeing someone now.
SHAUNESSY: Is that...permanent?
JOANNA: I...I don't know...
SHAUNESSY: Then, we don't really know, do we, when you say "permanently" if you plan to live in New York, or even to keep the child for that matter, since you've never really done anything in your life that was continuing, stable, or could be regarded as permanent.
GRESSEN-- Objection! I must request that the counsel be prevented from harassing the witness.
Judge: Sustained.
SHAUNESSY: I'll put it another way counselor, what is the longest personal relationship in your life outside of your parents or girlfriends?
JOANNA: I suppose that would be...with my child.
SHAUNESSY: Whom you've seen twice in a year? Mrs. Kramer, your ex-husband, wasn't he the longest personal relationship in your life? Would you speak up Mrs. Kramer, I couldn't hear that.
JOANNA: Yes...
SHAUNESSY: How long was that?
JOANNA: We were married a year before the baby. And then seven years after that.
SHAUNESSY: So, you were a failure at the one most important relationship in your life.
GRESSEN: Objection!
JUDGE: Overruled. The witness' opinion on this is relevant.
JOANNA: I was not a failure.
SHAUNESSY: Oh? What do you call it then--a success? The marriage ended
in divorce?
JOANNA: I consider it less my failure than his.
SHAUNESSY: Congratulations, Mrs. Kramer. You have just rewritten matrimonial law. You were both divorced, Mrs. Kramer.
GRESSEN: Objection!
SHAUNESSY: Your honor, I would like to ask if this model of stability and respectability has ever succeeded at anything? Mrs. Kramer, were you a failure
at the longest, most important personal relationship in your life?
JUDGE: Please answer the question, Mrs. Kramer.
JOANNA: It did not succeed.
SHAUNESSY: Not it, Mrs. Kramer--you. Were you a failure at the one most important personal relation-ship of your life? Were you?
JOANNA: Yes.
SHAUNESSY: No further questions.
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WITNESS: Mr. Kramer is a very devoted father, he spends a great deal of time with Billy, he reads to Billy a lot, they play together, they talk all the time. He is a wonderful father.
SHAUNESSY: Thank you Mrs. Phelps. No further questions.
GREESEN: Mrs. Phelps, how long have you known Joanna Kramer? About six (6) years, every since she and Ted moved into the building.
GREESEN: And how often did you see Joanna Kramer and her son?
PHELPS: Well, of course I haven't seen them together now for a bout a year and a half. Back then, I saw them maybe two or three times a week. Kim, my oldest and Billy play together all the time.
GREESEN: Can you describe the relationship between Mrs. Kramer and her son
PHELPS: It was good. Joanna was a very good mother. Both Ted and Joanna are very good . . .
GREESEN: At the time you knew Joanna Kramer, did she ever discuss her relationship with her ex-husband?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you tell the court exactly what she said?
A: Joanna wasn't very happy, for a number of reasons. . .one (1) of them . . .
Q: Did you ever hear her say that Mr. Kramer was insensitive to her son's needs? I'm sorry but I didn't hear you.
A: Yes, but that was before
Q: Mrs. Phelps did you ever encourage Joanna Kramer to leave her husband?
A: No I did not.
Q: Several days before she left, did you say: If you are so much pain, you owe it to yourself to leave?
A: I didn't think that Joanna would go all. . .
Q: Did you say to Joanna Kramer, if you are in this much pain, you owe it to yourself to leave?
A: Yes but she was my friend and she was in trouble.
Mrs. Phelps: Joanna, things are not the same now, Ted is not the man, you don't know how hard he's tried. They're beautiful together, just beautiful. If you could see them together,
Judge: Mrs. Phelps?
Petitioner: Your honor, the witness has been asked to step down.
Mrs. Phelps: maybe you wouldn't be here right now.
Judge: Mrs. Phelps, that will be all.
Mrs. Phelps: I'm sorry.
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Respondent: (Witness, Mr. Kramer)
A: Well, you know when you were talking before with. . .with my Ex-wife, when she was talking before about being so unhappy she was during our marriage, I guess mostly what she said was probably true. There's a lot of things I didn't understand, there's a lot of things I would do differently if I could just like I think there's a lot of things you wish you could change but we can't. Some things once they're done, can't be undone. My wife, ex-wife says that she loves billy and I believe she does, but I don't think that's the issue here. If I understand it correctly, what means the most here is what's best for our son. What's best for Billy. My wife use to always say to me. Why can't a woman have the same ambitions as a man. I think you're right and maybe I learned that much. But by the same token, I'd like to know what law is it that says that a woman is a better parent simply by virtue of her sex. You know I've had a lot of time I think about, what is it that makes somebody a good parent? You know it has to do with constancy, it has to do with patience, it has to do with listening to them, it has to do with pretending to listen to them when you can't even listen any more. It has to do with love, like she was saying and I don't know where it is written that says that a woman has the corner on that market, that says that a man has any less than a woman does. Billy has a home with me, I've made it the best I could. It's not perfect, I'm not a perfect parent. Sometimes, I don't have enough patience and I forget he's a little kid. But I'm there. I get up every morning and then we eat breakfast and he talks to me and then we go to school and at night we have dinner together and we talk then and I read to him and we built a life together and we love each other. If you destroy that, it may irreparable. Joanna, don't do that please. Don't do it twice to me.
Respondent: Thank you Mr. Kramer. No further questions.
Petitioner:
Q: Mr. Kramer, how long have you been in advertising?
A: Every since I graduated high school. . .college I mean, I started in the mail room and I've been there ten or fifteen years.
Q: And would you say you've achieved a certain status or position in your profession?
A: Yes I think I have a pretty good reputation.
Q: Mr. Kramer, when you were working at Ross, King and Donovan, what was your salary?
A: I think I was making around Thirty- Three thousand dollars a year when I left.
Q: And now I believe you're working at Norman, Craig and Cummell?
A: That's correct.
Q: And what is your salary there?
A: It's almost Twenty-Nine Thousand Dollars ($29,000.00).
Q: Could you be more specific Mr. Kramer?
A: I make Twenty-Eight Thousand, Two Hundred Dollars ($28,200.00).
Q: Twenty-Eight Thousand, Two Hundred? Well, Mr. Kramer, you're the only person I know of who is working his way down the ladder of success.
Respondent: Your honor, I must ask that counsel's last remark be stricken from the record.
Judge: Sustained.
Q: Now Mr. Kramer, isn't it true that you fired from your previous job?
A: I was let go.
Q: Very well Mr. Kramer, will you tell the court why you were let go?
A: There was a difference of opinion and company policy.
Q: Mr. Kramer isn't it true that your firm lost a major advertising account due to your negligence?
Respondent: Objection.
Petitioner: Your honor, I'm only trying to establish the witness' employment history. He pretends to fitness when he cannot hold a job.
Judge: I'll allow it. Mr. Shaunessy.
A: . . .a client in the middle of a campaign to change his mind and go elsewhere, it happens every day.
Q: Mr. Kramer, was it not true that you walked out on your client in the middle of a major presentation saying that you had an appointment with a first grade teacher?
A: There was a problem in school, my son was sitting next to a kid who was hitting and biting.
Q: Yes or no Mr. Kramer?
A: Yes, but he was biting my kid.
Q: Mr. Kramer, in the spring of this last year, did you or did you not miss a deadline on a Mid Atlantic Airlines Account, causing your company not only a great deal of embarrassment but considerable financial liability as well?
A: On that day, I had to go home because my child was sick.
Q: Did you Mr. Kramer or did you not miss a deadline, yes or no?
A: My son was sick.
Judge: Mr. Kramer, answer the question.
A: I am trying to answer the question, it is not yes or no. I am sitting there in my office and . . .
Petitioner : Mr. Kramer!
A: He had a 104 temperature, he's lying there sweating, I go home to be with him.
Petitioner: Your honor!
Judge: Mr. Kramer! I must urge you to stop or else I will hold you in Contempt.
A: I missed a deadline.
Q: Mr. Kramer, would you say you have a violent temper?
A: No.
Respondent: Objection.
Petitioner: I'll withdraw the question. Mr. Kramer, do you consider yourself a fit and responsible parent?
A: Yes I do.
Q: Isn't it true that your child nearly lost an eye when he was in your care? Answer the question Mr. Kramer.
A: we were on the playground and he was on the jungle gym and . . .
Q: Fell and then nearly lost an eye when he was in your care.
A: He fell down and cut himself.
Q: Isn't it true that you told your ex-wife that you were responsible for the injury that permanently disfigured your child?
Respondent: I object to counsel. . .
Q: Didn't you say to her recently: "when it happened, I felt I was guilty, I felt it was all my fault!"?
Respondent: Objection.
Petitioner: Your honor, I have concluded my questions.
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